The problem with F/OSS office suites is that their audience tends to be uncritical, so much as in the fairy tale "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" (but in inverse), professionals have stopped listening.
I remember at least three incidents where I was instructed to evaluate Open Office, Libre Office or other F/OSS word processing or layout packages. In each instance, the F/OSS products fell short in fundamental ways, and were a total disaster for larger documents. Their main strength was that it was often easier to ex
Perhaps you should follow your own advice and post the failing test cases so we could see what's broken. Then some enterprising developer could figure out how to fix them. Complaining without specifics, as you are doing, is not practically different from being "uncritical".
Perhaps you should follow your own advice and post the failing test cases so we could see what's broken.
That's a great idea! Let's think it through, however. I don't own the data; that belongs to the client. Thus, I have to be somewhat vague. Further, I'm available for consulting at my usual rate -- my contact should be on my user page. I give very specific reports (not written in OO, LibreOffice or Word) to clients.
That's a great idea! Let's think it through, however. I don't own the data; that belongs to the client. Thus, I have to be somewhat vague.
You couldn't modify the example enough to use the documents already examined in your tests? Or, if the problem was a missing feature instead of a bug, you couldn't explain it without that specific set of spreadsheet data?
I'm available for consulting at my usual rate -- my contact should be on my user page.
So you're saying that you don't volunteer your time to someone's project. Pay to play, right?
From your journal post earlier today:
Despite having other demands on my time, I've begun spending a half-hour or so every day making submissions to Slashdot and trying to write quality comments. I am doing this because I think Slashdot is an important part of the internet, which like other forms of media, for good or ill is a part of our "culture."...It's not perfect...I've been modded -1, Flamebait for a post I thought was insightful too. Nothing is perfect...Support Slashdot. With your energy, time, money, whatever. It's worth it.
Hold on now. If you're willing to take that stance regarding Slashdot, why not just be honest about F/OSS office suites? You don't care about them and have no interest in seeing them succeed. There really is nothing wrong with that position.
So you're saying that you don't volunteer your time to someone's project.
No, absolutely not. But in this case, I'm full up with projects and so this should be pay-to-play. As you can see, I give a lot of my time to free projects.
You don't care about them and have no interest in seeing them succeed.
Not really. But having an audience that can't tell "doesn't work" from "works" means I wouldn't waste my time on that particular product.
Further, my belief is that having more different types of word processors is
I didn't claim you opposed anything; in fact, I specifically suggested that you be honest about your "disengagement". However, your posts would certainly lend themselves to assuming that you are trolling. You hand wave about supposed specific problems but provide no specifics, then when asked to contribute the specifics you suggest that you might if someone pays you for your time. For testing and reporting problems with a F/OSS project. This certainly looks more like opposition, not apathy. But I also
If you're willing to take that stance regarding Slashdot, why not just be honest about F/OSS office suites? You don't care about them and have no interest in seeing them succeed. There really is nothing wrong with that position.
I think you're making his(?) point for him. He never said he cared about F/OSS office suites or had an interest in seeing them succeed. He said he'd been asked to evaluate them on several occasions and found that they fell short. There is no obligation on anyone, or even on everyone who posts on Slashdot, to find F/OSS inherently superior in some way.
He's not the only one with reservations. I, too, have evaluated many alternatives to MS Office for my own businesses, clients, and others. So far, I am still s
I think you're making his(?) point for him. He never said he cared about F/OSS office suites or had an interest in seeing them succeed. He said he'd been asked to evaluate them on several occasions and found that they fell short. There is no obligation on anyone, or even on everyone who posts on Slashdot, to find F/OSS inherently superior in some way.
Indeed. I expect many read his posts and assume he is a troll. I pointed out that perhaps he isn't, but that he probably could have been more forthcoming in his responses.
He's not the only one with reservations. I, too, have evaluated many alternatives to MS Office for my own businesses, clients, and others. So far, I am still strongly of the view that for anyone with non-trivial requirements and whose time matters more than a little money (which is almost everyone in business or government for a start) neither the OpenOffice family nor any of the on-line alternatives like Google Docs that I have seen to date are serious competitors. Home users can use toy software and might not mind. Professionals need tools that work reliably and efficiently, and £200 or so is nothing compared to the losses of using substandard and/or incompatible tools.
I used OpenOffice exclusively as the IT Director for a university for several years. At no point did we seriously consider moving the campus there, but I proved to myself that it was very possible to use it day in and day out. In my current job (where I'm back on MS Office), we spend several hundred thousand dollars per year with Micro
OK, I was being a little flippant with the "toy" vs. "professional" thing, but only a little.
If, as you say, the majority of your document creation could be handled by WordPad, then sure, it probably doesn't matter which word processor you use. In fact, by your own argument, you don't actually need a word processor at all.
On the other hand, for people who do actually need the kind of extra functionality that a good word processor or spreadsheet offers, the poor usability of the OpenOffice family in comparis
Governments should also operate under a constraint they rarely do.
Governments should avoid forcing their citizens to pay money to a private entity in order for their citizens to interact with them. This means that governments should avoid using software who's data format is largely proprietary.
Yes, yes, the stupid 'documented' XML format that's not really an open standard at all....
I think, for a document format to be considered standard, there must be at least one piece of fully-interoperable Open Source s
Governments should avoid forcing their citizens to pay money to a private entity in order for their citizens to interact with them.
The trouble with that argument is that taken to its logical conclusion it can't possibly work in general. For many government interactions, I now have a choice of filing on-line (requires an Internet connection), sending everything by post (requires paying postage) or personally visiting a government office (requires paying for transportation to get there and back if I don't live nearby). Life isn't free, which is why we get jobs to earn money that we spend on other things, some of which are essential.
The trouble with that argument is that taken to its logical conclusion it can't possibly work in general. For many government interactions, I now have a choice of filing on-line (requires an Internet connection), sending everything by post (requires paying postage) or personally visiting a government office (requires paying for transportation to get there and back if I don't live nearby). Life isn't free, which is why we get jobs to earn money that we spend on other things, some of which are essential.
Yes, but the post office is regulated and may only charge a legislatively limited amount of money. And for the others, you have a choice of providers.
For editing a Microsoft Word document (to, say, fill out a form) you have to buy a piece of software from a particular entity that has been granted a government monopoly on providing you with those bits. The government, in essence, has given them the power to impose an arbitrary tax on you that there is no reason for them to limit.
Out of curiosity, may I ask where you're based? It sounds like this is a real problem for you, and if I had to submit things myself in Word format then I might well agree. Here in the UK, information from the government is often provided as, e.g., a PDF file, but things that are interactive like filing tax returns are typically done using (usually fairly well done) government-hosted web sites.
It's not actually a real problem. I barely interact with the government at all.:-) And the government here is still almost obsessively paper based.
I have a problem with resume's sometimes. But I'm skilled enough that generally recruiters are more than happy to convert to Word for me, and that has nothing to do with government access.
The problem with FOSS office suites (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem with F/OSS office suites is that their audience tends to be uncritical, so much as in the fairy tale "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" (but in inverse), professionals have stopped listening.
I remember at least three incidents where I was instructed to evaluate Open Office, Libre Office or other F/OSS word processing or layout packages. In each instance, the F/OSS products fell short in fundamental ways, and were a total disaster for larger documents. Their main strength was that it was often easier to ex
Re:The problem with FOSS office suites (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps you should follow your own advice and post the failing test cases so we could see what's broken. Then some enterprising developer could figure out how to fix them. Complaining without specifics, as you are doing, is not practically different from being "uncritical".
Posting test cases (Score:2)
That's a great idea! Let's think it through, however. I don't own the data; that belongs to the client. Thus, I have to be somewhat vague. Further, I'm available for consulting at my usual rate -- my contact should be on my user page. I give very specific reports (not written in OO, LibreOffice or Word) to clients.
Re:Posting test cases (Score:4, Interesting)
That's a great idea! Let's think it through, however. I don't own the data; that belongs to the client. Thus, I have to be somewhat vague.
You couldn't modify the example enough to use the documents already examined in your tests? Or, if the problem was a missing feature instead of a bug, you couldn't explain it without that specific set of spreadsheet data?
I'm available for consulting at my usual rate -- my contact should be on my user page.
So you're saying that you don't volunteer your time to someone's project. Pay to play, right?
From your journal post earlier today:
Despite having other demands on my time, I've begun spending a half-hour or so every day making submissions to Slashdot and trying to write quality comments. I am doing this because I think Slashdot is an important part of the internet, which like other forms of media, for good or ill is a part of our "culture."...It's not perfect...I've been modded -1, Flamebait for a post I thought was insightful too. Nothing is perfect...Support Slashdot. With your energy, time, money, whatever. It's worth it.
Hold on now. If you're willing to take that stance regarding Slashdot, why not just be honest about F/OSS office suites? You don't care about them and have no interest in seeing them succeed. There really is nothing wrong with that position.
Don't confuse disengagement for opposition (Score:2)
No, absolutely not. But in this case, I'm full up with projects and so this should be pay-to-play. As you can see, I give a lot of my time to free projects.
Not really. But having an audience that can't tell "doesn't work" from "works" means I wouldn't waste my time on that particular product.
Further, my belief is that having more different types of word processors is
Re: (Score:2)
Don't confuse disengagement for opposition
I didn't claim you opposed anything; in fact, I specifically suggested that you be honest about your "disengagement". However, your posts would certainly lend themselves to assuming that you are trolling. You hand wave about supposed specific problems but provide no specifics, then when asked to contribute the specifics you suggest that you might if someone pays you for your time. For testing and reporting problems with a F/OSS project. This certainly looks more like opposition, not apathy. But I also
Re: (Score:1)
If you're willing to take that stance regarding Slashdot, why not just be honest about F/OSS office suites? You don't care about them and have no interest in seeing them succeed. There really is nothing wrong with that position.
I think you're making his(?) point for him. He never said he cared about F/OSS office suites or had an interest in seeing them succeed. He said he'd been asked to evaluate them on several occasions and found that they fell short. There is no obligation on anyone, or even on everyone who posts on Slashdot, to find F/OSS inherently superior in some way.
He's not the only one with reservations. I, too, have evaluated many alternatives to MS Office for my own businesses, clients, and others. So far, I am still s
Re: (Score:2)
I think you're making his(?) point for him. He never said he cared about F/OSS office suites or had an interest in seeing them succeed. He said he'd been asked to evaluate them on several occasions and found that they fell short. There is no obligation on anyone, or even on everyone who posts on Slashdot, to find F/OSS inherently superior in some way.
Indeed. I expect many read his posts and assume he is a troll. I pointed out that perhaps he isn't, but that he probably could have been more forthcoming in his responses.
He's not the only one with reservations. I, too, have evaluated many alternatives to MS Office for my own businesses, clients, and others. So far, I am still strongly of the view that for anyone with non-trivial requirements and whose time matters more than a little money (which is almost everyone in business or government for a start) neither the OpenOffice family nor any of the on-line alternatives like Google Docs that I have seen to date are serious competitors. Home users can use toy software and might not mind. Professionals need tools that work reliably and efficiently, and £200 or so is nothing compared to the losses of using substandard and/or incompatible tools.
I used OpenOffice exclusively as the IT Director for a university for several years. At no point did we seriously consider moving the campus there, but I proved to myself that it was very possible to use it day in and day out. In my current job (where I'm back on MS Office), we spend several hundred thousand dollars per year with Micro
Re: (Score:2)
OK, I was being a little flippant with the "toy" vs. "professional" thing, but only a little.
If, as you say, the majority of your document creation could be handled by WordPad, then sure, it probably doesn't matter which word processor you use. In fact, by your own argument, you don't actually need a word processor at all.
On the other hand, for people who do actually need the kind of extra functionality that a good word processor or spreadsheet offers, the poor usability of the OpenOffice family in comparis
Re: (Score:2)
Governments should also operate under a constraint they rarely do.
Governments should avoid forcing their citizens to pay money to a private entity in order for their citizens to interact with them. This means that governments should avoid using software who's data format is largely proprietary.
Yes, yes, the stupid 'documented' XML format that's not really an open standard at all....
I think, for a document format to be considered standard, there must be at least one piece of fully-interoperable Open Source s
Re: (Score:2)
Governments should avoid forcing their citizens to pay money to a private entity in order for their citizens to interact with them.
The trouble with that argument is that taken to its logical conclusion it can't possibly work in general. For many government interactions, I now have a choice of filing on-line (requires an Internet connection), sending everything by post (requires paying postage) or personally visiting a government office (requires paying for transportation to get there and back if I don't live nearby). Life isn't free, which is why we get jobs to earn money that we spend on other things, some of which are essential.
This
Re: (Score:2)
The trouble with that argument is that taken to its logical conclusion it can't possibly work in general. For many government interactions, I now have a choice of filing on-line (requires an Internet connection), sending everything by post (requires paying postage) or personally visiting a government office (requires paying for transportation to get there and back if I don't live nearby). Life isn't free, which is why we get jobs to earn money that we spend on other things, some of which are essential.
Yes, but the post office is regulated and may only charge a legislatively limited amount of money. And for the others, you have a choice of providers.
For editing a Microsoft Word document (to, say, fill out a form) you have to buy a piece of software from a particular entity that has been granted a government monopoly on providing you with those bits. The government, in essence, has given them the power to impose an arbitrary tax on you that there is no reason for them to limit.
For example, it would be perm
Re: (Score:2)
Out of curiosity, may I ask where you're based? It sounds like this is a real problem for you, and if I had to submit things myself in Word format then I might well agree. Here in the UK, information from the government is often provided as, e.g., a PDF file, but things that are interactive like filing tax returns are typically done using (usually fairly well done) government-hosted web sites.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not actually a real problem. I barely interact with the government at all. :-) And the government here is still almost obsessively paper based.
I have a problem with resume's sometimes. But I'm skilled enough that generally recruiters are more than happy to convert to Word for me, and that has nothing to do with government access.
But, I live in Seattle, Washington in the USA.
Re: (Score:2)
I had one of those. Boiled it down to the smallest possible test case (AFAICT), even.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35664 [freedesktop.org]
Couldn't tell you why it's still marked 'new', though.