Native Americans Ask Apache Foundation To Change Name (theregister.com) 339
Natives in Tech, a US-based non-profit organization, has called upon the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) to change its name, out of respect for indigenous American peoples and to live up to its own code of conduct. The Register reports: In a blog post, Natives in Tech members Adam Recvlohe, Holly Grimm, and Desiree Kane have accused the ASF of appropriating Indigenous culture for branding purposes. Citing ASF founding member Brian Behlendorf's description in the documentary "Trillions and Trillions Served" of how he wanted something more romantic than a tech term like "spider" and came up with "Apache" after seeing a documentary about Geronimo, the group said: "This frankly outdated spaghetti-Western 'romantic' presentation of a living and vibrant community as dead and gone in order to build a technology company 'for the greater good' is as ignorant as it is offensive."
And the aggrieved trio challenged the ASF to make good on its code of conduct commitment to "be careful in the words that [they] choose" by choosing a new name. The group took issue with what they said was the suggestion that the Apache tribe exists only in a past historical context, citing eight federally recognized Native American tribes that bear the name. In a statement emailed to The Register, an ASF spokesperson said, "We hear the concerns from the Native American people and are listening. As a non-profit run by volunteers, changes will need time to be carefully weighed with members, the board, and our legal team. Our members are exploring alternative ways to address it, but we don't have anything to share at this time."
And the aggrieved trio challenged the ASF to make good on its code of conduct commitment to "be careful in the words that [they] choose" by choosing a new name. The group took issue with what they said was the suggestion that the Apache tribe exists only in a past historical context, citing eight federally recognized Native American tribes that bear the name. In a statement emailed to The Register, an ASF spokesperson said, "We hear the concerns from the Native American people and are listening. As a non-profit run by volunteers, changes will need time to be carefully weighed with members, the board, and our legal team. Our members are exploring alternative ways to address it, but we don't have anything to share at this time."
Go back to the original idea (Score:4, Insightful)
It was "a patchy server" so how about "A Patchy Foundation."
Re:Go back to the original idea (Score:4, Funny)
Or, just change the logo from a feather to a helicopter.
Re:Go back to the original idea (Score:4, Informative)
Naming it after the helicopter won't help, since the Helicopter was named after the tribe. That's a theme for US Army helicopter names: Iroquois, Comanche, Apache, etc. My understanding is the Army does actually get agreement from the Native Americans before naming anything after them, so they don't have the same problem with it being seen as disrespectful. It may be easier to get forgiveness than permission, but you get a lot less hassle in the long run when you ask first.
Re:Go back to the original idea (Score:5, Funny)
whoosh whoosh whoosh whoosh whoosh
(the sound of the helicopter blades whooshing over your head, like the joke did)
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But the helicopter name was given permission by the tribe, so it would absolutely help. It completely eliminates any claim of cultural appropriation.
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I was wondering what other fossils were around that remembered the actual origin of the name !
Re: Go back to the original idea (Score:3)
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I second this. "A Patchy Foundation" is actually a very cool / funny name for a foundation that oversees open-source projects.
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That seems to be the best possible solution. And remove any reference to those offended people. Let them get the level of obscurity they apparently crave.
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Doesn't look like there are any actual Apache claiming offence, just the usual grievance grifters claiming offense on behalf of third parties.
This happens every few years (Score:4, Insightful)
It has nothing to do with "woke" culture, these tribes are plagued by absolute crushing poverty, and have been trying to get licensing money from these companies for decades. The Cherokee chief goes after Jeep every once in awhile.
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Not necessarily. Not all of these protests are instigated or supported by tribal leadership.
Re: This happens every few years (Score:2)
Cherokee chief goes after Jeep every once in awhile
Why, because they don't like being associated with the word Grand?
Re:This happens every few years (Score:4, Insightful)
It's 'woke' in that it's complete a complete virtue-signaling, pointless demand that will have zero impact on solving the problems of 'absolute crushing poverty' you seem to be calling out as justification for this change.
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How much of that poverty is self-inflicted, though? I mean, at the opposite end of the spectrum, you have the Seminole tribe... every single one of whom becomes a literal millionaire the day they turn 18, and are treated like royalty by Florida State University.
Re:This happens every few years (Score:4)
They must have overlooked how the Apache Foundation is a non-profit. Apparently they also have an education problem.
Why is using tribe names offensive? (Score:5, Interesting)
I grew up in Cherokee County, Oklahoma. Many businesses used "Cherokee" in the name. It was seen as a sort of point of pride, something that honored Cherokees.
Why is using the name "Apache" considered offensive? Apache Foundation is well-respected. There's no reason to think that their use of the name Apache would in any way be derogatory of native Americans.
What am I missing?
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Why are we so intent on letting the most ignorant and offended ( venn diagram; just a circle ) continue to dominate the public discussion then?
And what is "cultural appropriation" anyway? Shouldn't that be the goal? That aspects of your culture are so cool that others want to adopt them? Great big melting pot, right?
Let's all get better together, not further segregate ourselves in order to avoid "appropriating" someone's culture.
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I'm guessing someone wants money. It's always about money.
Re: Why is using tribe names offensive? (Score:2)
Cherokee County [Re:Why is using tribe names...] (Score:2)
I grew up in Cherokee County, Oklahoma. Many businesses used "Cherokee" in the name. It was seen as a sort of point of pride, something that honored Cherokees... What am I missing?
You're missing the fact that there actually are Cherokees in Oklahoma.
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I recommend watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
It explains a lot in a short time.
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You are assuming that members of the Apache tribe are monolithic and uniformly dislike businesses using the Apache name. Knowing many Cherokees, my guess is that most couldn't care less. Rather, there are a few with megaphones who want to impose their sense of being offended on the entire population.
Spaghetti western? (Score:4, Interesting)
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coining "spaghetti western" as an art (or entertainment) sub-genre isn't the same as "calling someone spaghetti because italian". the latter would be a direct, personal offense. the former is just a popular designation that mainly exists because "spaghetti" is a cultural icon that italy has never had a problem with being associated with, but has actively promoted and exported (with notable success). you might debate if half a century of political correctness improvements later that custom ought to be change
Re:Spaghetti western? (Score:5, Funny)
And "going Dutch" implies that Netherlanders are stingy. I suppose if you try hard enough, everyone can be offended about something.
But we're also an innovative people. Did you know it was actually the Dutch that invented copper wire? Apparently, two Dutchmen were fighting over a penny.
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Then of course there's the Dutch Oven (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dutch%20oven) ;-)
Re: Spaghetti western? (Score:2)
Re: Spaghetti western? (Score:2)
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i have no idea, but the spaghetti monster is watching you.
What about the helicopters? (Score:2)
Will the army have to change the name of the AH64 ?
(of course they could always just donate them to Ukraine and Taiwan)
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lol ... "donate"! a connoisseur! i see you know how wars actually work wink wink nudge nudge! ;-)
Re:What about the helicopters? (Score:4, Informative)
No, because the Army literally asked the Apache for permission first.
Same with the other helicopters named after tribes.
A funny definition... (Score:2)
A funny definition from the dictionary...
apache2 | paSH, äpäSH |
noun (plural apaches | paSH, äpäSH | ) dated
a violent troublemaker, originally in Paris.
So now the French and Parisians will be upset?
I'd go with "Apshai" to honor the cool computer game when I was a kid...
https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki... [wikipedia.org]
JoshK.
Unsurprising. (Score:2)
I surprised they haven't called it a hate crime yet.
Forced White-washing (Score:2)
Before changing, tribe should have a say (Score:3)
Origin of "Apache" (Score:5, Interesting)
No, not talking about the origin of the name for the Foundation, but rather this [native-languages.org].
I just find that interesting. "Apache" was appropriated from another group of people in the first place.
for those who don't know history (Score:3, Insightful)
originally httpd was call "a patchy webserver" because it was constantly being patched. The name stuck and was changed to apache. I've been contributing to apache for over a decade and I have no problems with changing the name. The down side though is it's a lot of work. All of the software will need to be updated to remove apache. That's not a trivial task. Keep in mind open source developers don't like to do work they feel is pointless. There have been thousands of flame wars on apache mailing lists over the years about pointless work.
Also keep in mind there's lots of bloated egos in apache community. I stopped counting the flame wars after a few years and just ignore them. The bigger issue is source control and regression management. Once you change all of the package names, you've added extra overhead with back porting fixes. Look at Hadoop. If you count all the components, there's over 10 million lines of code.
It will take a long time for every project to transition and the amount of work needed is easily tens of thousands of hours.
Call it "Honest" (Score:5, Funny)
And then the whole implementation can be called the... Honest Engine.
Let the pot-stirrers choke on it.
I volunteer "Golden Horde Software Foundation" (Score:5, Interesting)
As a Russian Tatar, I would love my culture to have more worldwide prominence and a recognition, even if some of it ends up being cartoonish. So whenever anyone gets offended, please replace the reference to similar reference to Russian or Tatar culture! I am SO unoffended to be stereotyped as a mighty warrior when in fact I am an SWE who could lose a few pounds. Also PLEASE dress up as Russian and Tatar folks figures on Halloween. Even if you whiteface or yellowface is Ok. Bottom line, most people who imitate a culture like a culture and people who are its original origin. Never met a Hula dancer of any nationality who hated polynesians or an anime fan who hated Japanese. Please, can I also be part of a successful model minority?
How about we draw the line here (Score:4, Insightful)
Just go back to calling it Apatchy Web Server (Score:2)
Like this [xahlee.info]
A few things (Score:4, Interesting)
2. Calling it 'Apache' is not derogatory in any way, shape, or form. It's not a slur. It's an actual, proper noun that is a homonym for a phrase. It's used in a thoroughly neutral manner. Even the very, very obviously retconned version of the etymology quoted in the blogpost is only offensive to the extent that one wants to be 'offended' by reality, much like those people mentioned above.
3. If we as a society wish to compose a list of cultural names and declare some sort of asinine little moratorium on using them for anything, so be it, but we cannot keep engaging in this exercise for everything that ever used one of those names in a completely innocuous manner. It's a tremendous drain on time and resources that we don't have to solve a problem that only exists in the heads of extremely petty little people who are, again, quite possibly even more infuriating than those from point #1.
4. It does not fall upon the architects of a massive, decades-old project - the secure functioning of which the world currently relies on to a non-trivial degree to prevent the wheels from popping off of society - to undertake a massive rebranding, coding, testing, and redistribution in order to address an imaginary slight to three whiny assholes. Either this little trio of dipshits need to actually learn about "Tech" before referring to themselves as "Natives in" it, or the abstract concept of solipsism managed to congeal into three human forms, gain sentience, and start authoring blog posts.
Interesting (Score:3)
By the time we satisfy all the demands to erase these names, we'll be functionally erasing all Native American people and words from the lexicon.
Background on "Natives in Tech" (Score:4, Interesting)
Did anyone actually look up the "organization"?
Their forum [nativesintech.org] is all a bunch of posts by Adam Recvlohe with no replies. The blog [nativesintech.org] is also basically all just a bunch of articles by him. The github [github.com] doesn't have much going on either.
Kind of interesting to be talking about "appropriation" at the same time you happily cede to *one guy* the capacity to speak for an *entire ethnic demographic* and negotiate removing any public references to them.
Disagree! (Score:3)
2) It'll literally cost the planet billions to change it.
3) It serves as a daily reminder to the US IT community (and to others, who might get ideas of genocide), that there are debts that can never be paid.
Fewer than 500 followers? (Score:4, Insightful)
A group with fewer than 500 followers on Facebook, averaging zero interactions with their posts. Fewer than 2500 on Twitter, averaging low single digit likes/retweets.
The correct response would be to ignore them. The second best option is to point and laugh at the identitarian weirdos. To quote one of their retweets:
>If you've learnt an indigenous language and you're not indigenous, then think hard about the indigenous data you're giving away by using that indigenous language in colonial platforms (FB/Meta, YouTube, Twitter etc.) and whether you have the right to give that data away.
Fuck them.
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:5, Insightful)
Trying to be respectful to a group of people is "hateful"? You are well and truly fucked in the head.
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:5, Funny)
Will the US Airforce be asked to rename their helicopters?
AH-64 -> HTTPD-64
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They'll soon be releasing a smaller, lighter version called NGINX-64.
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Am I the only one that still runs apache outside of docker? Don't get me wrong, I'm nginx all day in my docker applications.. but if I have a loadbalancer or other webserver running on bare metal (there's always one), then it's gonna be Apache
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Actually, I typically still use apache for most things.
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:5, Funny)
With the caveat that you never know what is to come, I'd think the Apaches would be proud to have their name associated with the Apache foundation and their code. They make some really great stuff.
Now if Microsoft was an indian tribe, well, I'd agree with that tribe.
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404 - not found
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Will the US Airforce be asked to rename their helicopters?
Probably. Along with everyone else trying to get anyone to remember the name "Apache" through some level of admiration and respect for naming product after it.
I mean, if you think the Apache Indians are gonna keep that alive, the kids saying "Apachee-who?" today will clarify how well that'll pan out in the long run.
Nothing quite like digging your own grave to preserve it.
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As the founding member of the Respect for Cobras Society, I demand the army stop naming their horrible war machines after these sweet, shy, tender, misunderstood creatures!
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:5, Informative)
No, because those names are chosen with cooperation from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which liaises with the tribes in question to get permission - there was much fan fair for both the RAH-66 Comanche and the UH-72A Lakota when the naming ceremonies involved tribal members. Cant find any specific info on whether there was a naming ceremony for the AH-64 Apache, but the naming process went through the same steps involving the BIA and tribal leaders.
Some general info on the topic is available here - https://www.defense.gov/News/I... [defense.gov]
Re: And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:2)
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Doesn't look like it. Kane's web page says he's Miwok and Recvlohe's that she's Muscogee. Grimm seems to be closest, but she's Diné, not Apache.
Seems they might be doing a bit of cultural appropriation.
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:4, Insightful)
Too chickenshit to say it yourself? Why?
Maybe they're employed by some people who are similarly fucked in the head. Maybe they're related to such. There are valid reasons to want to be anonymous when telling the fucked-in-the-head that they're fucked-in-the-head.
That said, I'm not surrounded by those who are fucked in the head in that way, so if it makes you feel better...
Trying to be respectful to a group of people is "hateful"? You are well and truly fucked in the head.
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:4, Insightful)
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Why are Republicans so obsessed with doing violence to their fellow countrymen?
Because these aren't real Republicans -- they're Ray Epps [frontpagemag.com]-style infiltrator units.
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I wonder if the people making this request has considered the multi-decade brand recognition that this foundation has established, not for the name they adopted, but for the work they accomplished. That would all be erased if 'Apache' became something else. There is no one who is going to be 'benefited' by changing their name. Doing so would only give an undeserving minority control over an organization who neither disrespects or harms anyone by using the name 'Apache'.
I hope that they respectfully dec
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It worked for renaming 'master' branch to 'main' in git! It basically came down to 3 influential 'decision-makers' in the development group that just decided that they were making the changed, faked an 'open' discussion about it and shutdown anyone who said it was a pointless gesture. It must be a real power-trip to have such a big impact that touches so many people, but some people have such serious narcissism issues that it's something they will go to extreme measures to satiate.
Re:And of course Apache will tell them to grow up (Score:5, Interesting)
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Native seems to be mostly objectionable to non-natives. There were some interviews with native Canadians a while ago and they preferred to be identified by their actual nation, but didn't have a problem with native as a general term. I've heard that in the US, many Indian communities prefer "Indian."
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Or maybe they'll honor their request and change the name to Apache Programming Group.
Re: Flip it around (Score:2)
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Rename it "Custer" or "Jackson."
Let's go with Sherman.
Re: I thought they got permission for name (Score:5, Funny)
Unless they gave something then took it back. Cant remember the name for thatâ¦
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You must be another old timer. The name for that has been suppressed for at least 50 years. I'll bet most people here have never heard the expression.
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The name for that has been suppressed for at least 50 years.
It wasn't suppressed at all. There came a point when polite society decided that being racist was not something we should do any more.
I'm aware that there are some people left who have no problem at all being rude about their neighbours, sometimes even to their faces, but it is getting less common which is nice.
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Just take a deep breath now.
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I guess not being racist is just virtue signalling now.
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I've heard it and I'm younger than 50 still, and I've heard it from people in their 30's, younger than that starts to stretch even more as it's a word that isn't use that much even 30 years ago
Re: I thought they got permission for name (Score:2)
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Ha ha funny. Not. If you knew anything about history you would know that native Americans seldom if ever took things back while European immigrants did so as a regular privilege. Should be 'European giver'.
Re:I thought they got permission for name (Score:4, Informative)
That may well be the case. Those who make a living complaining about perceived racial injustice do not necessarily represent any tribal council, much less any tribe or its membership.
When the Redskins changed their names, the change ultimately came at the behest of Federal Express (and their white executives). Dan Snyder carried out numerous, repeated polls in which he asked tribal members across the country how they felt about the Redskins name, and a majority of them had no problem with it.
When the Indians changed their name, it came at the request of no one in particular. The team ownership just did it out of nowhere.
The Florida State University Seminoles are under constant pressure to change their name and mascots despite having a monetary agreement with the Seminole nation to use their tribal name (along with their mascots, Osceola and Renegade).
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When the Indians changed their name, it came at the request of no one in particular. The team ownership just did it out of nowhere.
I have been hearing about the Indians name and logo for literal decades, even before the modern "woke" movement. Even growing up I knew that logo was questionable at best. They knew how a lot of people felt andfelt for a longtime They also had a double whammy with the name being historically inaccurate and let's just admit, a sterotypical and problematic logo. It was inevitable and it's a good thing it got changed.
Same thing with the Redskins, people have had an issue for a long time with the name and u
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people have had an issue for a long time with the name
What people? You mean the loudmouth 0.25% of the population? Time and again, when the original culture has been asked the question, they have no issues and don't even call it "cultural appropriation". Remember the kimono protests of Boston? Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, outside of the loudmouths, had any issues with others wearing kimonos.
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Legal scholar Steve Russell, a citizen of the Cherokee Nation stated in 2001: "The Cleveland Indians are probably the least offensively named professional team, until you meet Chief Wahoo. It is like naming a team the 'African-American Freedom Fighters' and then making Sambo the mascot. It is like naming a team 'La Raza' and then resurrecting the Frito Bandito for mascot duty. No one can make the honor claim with a straight face, unless they seriously think Chief Wahoo is a straight face."
Like it or not lou
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When the Indians changed their name, it came at the request of no one in particular. The team ownership just did it out of nowhere.
Inaccurate.
Maulian Dana, ambassador for the Penobscot Indian Nation (the tribe to which Louis Sockalexis, the Indian for whom the "Indians" were named, belonged), requested it. Among others.
And it most certainly did not "come out of nowhere",
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I'm actually in favor of this. I think we should stop referring to "those who shall not be named" until they are entirely erased from history.
Don't name anything after them, don't refer to them by any new names they give, just ignore them completely until they're forgotten.
The Apache were terrible and violent savages. They raped, pillaged and practiced misogyny, polygamy, and slavery. All the traits we find toxic today.
Let the Apache name be removed, but NOT BECAUSE THEY ASKED, but instead BECAUSE THEY S
Re:Wonderful idea (Score:5, Informative)
AND as a note in TFA referenced... The name came from "A PATCHY" web server and was normalized to Apache. I was around when they did that.
Yeah, like MOST software devs... It's kind of childish.
Now. Alla you kids get offa my lawn!!!!
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Re:Wonderful idea (Score:4, Interesting)
AND as a note in TFA referenced... The name came from "A PATCHY" web server and was normalized to Apache. I was around when they did that.
Geez, that was like yesterday; a zillion people were around. And that story is well documented.
Never heard this "Geronimo" story before.
However, the could both be true. Maybe he watched the movie and came up with the pun. And never mentioned it.
I'm a "native American" (from a tribe in Michigan) although we have always said "American indians". But there were hardly any people from India in the USA when we were growing up. I think most of the "appropriation" complaints are wokey bullshit. However, "The Apache Foundation" really does sound like it refers to the living Apache people. (However, "Apache Server" doesn't strike me as a problem. Did anyone think they were serving fresh Apache? Or providing valets for Apache people? Or that it denigrates restaurant waiters of Apache descent? C'mon.) So it makes sense to rename the foundation.
When they rename the foundation they will probably rename the software, too. That's OK.
Re: Flattery bad? (Score:2)
Re: Flattery bad? (Score:2)
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cool. i have a lot more business sense than you, though. i'm going to wait just a bit and then print that merch myself, and pitch it as original résistance underground. bio. check mate.
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Yep, that may well be what is going on. They are basically harming themselves. Not that they are in any way unique in that.
On the plus-side, this nicely illustrates the abject stupidity of the CoC in question. So we probably should thank them for that.
Re:Not disappointed (Score:4, Insightful)
Mockery of stupid ideas is hate now?
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It's retarded to put a space after the opening bracket, but not before the closing bracket.
[ These are brackets]
( These are not)
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Who are "them"? Since you are not a member of Apache, what right do you have to speak for them? On the other hand, as a Russian, do I have to ask Putin, who is unfortunately the current "chief" of my "tribe" for permission to open a "Russian pie shop"? How about if my neighbor wants to open a "Russian Pie Shop". Can I just go ahead and say "yeah that's a great idea" or does she need to obtain blessing of Putin or every single Russian on the planet?